The Big Idea
Your work can be fulfilling (if you let it).
Questions I Answer
- How can I find meaning at work?
- What can I do to figure out my purpose?
- How can I make work feel more purposeful?
Key Topics in the Show
Learning why you might be feeling unhappy at work (and the shocking statistic of how many others feel the same way!)
Changing your mindset to take charge of your career, and Ken’s story on how he came to this realization
Ken’s two questions you can ask yourself right now to take action toward the career you want
How you can put Ken’s Proximity Principle strategy into practice to build a life you love
Resources and Links
Welcome to Season 10 of Productivity Paradox with Tanya Dalton, a podcast
focused on helping you achieve your best life. Join Tanya this season as she explores the concept of bending time, so you could stay focused on what matters
To get her free checklist, Five Minutes to Peak Productivity, simply go to
inkWELLpress.com/podcast. Now here‘s your host, Tanya Dalton.
Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome to Productivity Paradox. I’m your host,
Tanya Dalton, and this is Episode 125: Feeling Fulfilled in a Job You Love. Today’s episode has been brought to you by inkWELL Press. I’ll be
sharing a little bit more about that later on in the episode.
As you know, this season, we’re talking about bending time. Here’s the question: Where do we spend the majority of our time? For most of us, it’s at work, our job. Any conversations we have about time wouldn’t really be complete without talking about that elephant in the room, our overall happiness where we spend the majority of our days.
We can take ownership in that. We can choose to make our job
something we look forward to spending our time doing. That’s why I’m thrilled to have Ken Coleman on the show with me today, so we can dive into this even more,
Ken is host of the Ken Coleman Show and the top-rated EntreLeadership Podcast. He’s also the author of One Question: Life Changing Answers from Today’s Leading Voices, An acclaimed interviewer and broadcaster, Coleman equips, encourages, and entertains listeners through thought-provoking interviews, helping them grow their businesses, pursue their passions, and move towards purpose. Let me introduce you to Ken. Well, hi, Ken It’s so great to have you on the show today.
Tanya, good to talk with you. I’m so excited about our conversation.
I am, too, because I thoroughly enjoyed reading your book, The Proximity Principle. I really felt like the concepts you talked about would be so beneficial for my listeners, especially because this season of the podcast, we’re talking about bending time. A big part of that is dealing with our relationship with time and how we’re spending our time,
I think for most of us, the majority of our time is spent at work. But in the very first section of your book, you say that 70% of employees
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report that they’re completely dissatisfied with their current work situation, I think that’s such a sad number. Why do you think so many people are unhappy?
Well, there are some circumstances and then there is an underlying reason. The circumstances that create those feelings could be any one of the following: bad leadership. You have poor manager or poor leadership above you. It can really affect someone’s excitement and enthusiasm and passion for their work. Then you could look around you ... So that’s above you. Around you could be difficult people or a toxic work environment, just an unhealthy culture overall. Again, that can make going into work very, very unpleasant.
Then what I think is the largest reason and what I really focus on day-to day on my radio show and in this book is there’s no connection to the work. You’re good at your job, you’ve got proficiency there, but there’s no meaning for it to you. When you think about your work, it’s just boring or there’s no connection to it. I don’t love the work and the results.
Over time, what will happen is you begin to think that your job doesn’t matter and then you start to go, “Oh, boy. I don’t matter.” That’s the
scary thing. When we begin to lose connection to the work, we begin to think that our actual work doesn’t matter. Then the scary thing, as I said, people then believe that, “Well, if my job doesn’t matter then, boy, I’m just not worth a whole lot.” That’s scary, scary stuff. That’s when people get into some deep depression and it becomes overwhelming.
Those are the circumstances that lead to this underlying issue, and the underlying issue is I made a decision somewhere in my life. I fell into it because I just took an opportunity. It seemed like a safe decision. Who among us doesn’t think that safe isn’t smart?
What happens is we get in a position that just seemed like, “Well, this was a good decision. It pays the bills. There might be some upward mobility. It’s a pretty good industry,” yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, and safe becomes smart. Ultimately, we wake up one day and we go, “Well, I’m just afraid to leave this safety. I’m afraid what people will say about me. I’m afraid that I might actually fail,” or then we have fear’s ugly cousin, and that’s doubt.
Doubt says it’s too late. My ship has sailed. Doubt says even if I was going to step out and go for it, there is no path. I can’t get there because of my mortgage, because of my debt, or because of whatever, whatever, whatever. That is the answer in the whole nutshell right there,
That’s why people, to the rate of 70% in the United States, 80% internationally, are so disengaged at work that they dread going into
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work on Monday mornings. We‘re talking about high levels of anxiety on Sunday and we’re talking about sheer depression and overall yuckiness on Monday to the point that people are just trying to make it through the week, and that’s no way to live. Life is way too short to
Amen to that.
… work for no reason. Here’s another interesting piece of data. I’m not trying to make people feel sick. I’m trying to make people wake up. But 90,000-plus hours over a lifetime is what the average American is spending in the office. Can you imagine?
Especially if you’re going to a place you don’t love.
While doing work that doesn’t matter to you. It’s the psychological
equivalent of me telling your listeners, “Hey, you’re going to go to work this week and you’re going to work on moving a giant pile of rocks from one corner of a fenced-in yard and you’re going to move it to the other corner. Then the week after that, we’re just going to move it back to the same corner.”
That’s what they did in concentration camps. That’s what they did in prison camps. It’s just sheer torture, because there’s no intrinsic value for the work that you’re doing. That’s an extreme example, but that is the psychological effect when there’s no connection to your work.
I think that’s so true. I think it’s so important to really understand what you really want to do. I think a lot of people feel like they don’t have choices. But I love in the book how you talk about how way back when you’re dreaming about having a job in radio and you really are excited at the idea of a job in radio. Then you realized one day that no one is thinking to themselves, “Hey, how can I get Ken Coleman his dream job?” No one is going to do that for you, but you.
I think that is such a strong realization that no one else out there is going to make these changes for you, except for you, that you have to actively choose it. Sometimes you have to choose not safe, right?
Well, absolutely. That realization for me on my back patio, when I was having a pity party one spring morning, was equal parts humbling and equal parts freeing. It was humbling because I realized what was the source of the issue was it was me and that I wasn’t a big a deal as
ybe I thought I was, which is why I wasn’t catching a break. No one was noticing me. That’s all just a complete self-induced lie and it’s delusional.
I was humbled when I realized, boy, I’ve just been acting like just an absolute dunce here. That makes total sense, why I’ve been acting that
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way. I was just sitting around waiting for somebody to tap me on the shoulder. Then when I got over licking wounds about how silly I felt for acting that way, it was really freeing because I realized if it’s to be, it’s up to me. I have to do that.
I was telling somebody this morning, I was just actually in the parking lot talking with somebody while we were walking into the building, you have to believe it in order to be it. That was a little thought I threw out to a friend.
That’s really huge. You‘ve got to believe that it is, in fact, up to you. You have to believe that you actually were equipped to be able to do it and that you can do it. When you believe it, then there’s a chance to be it. But we just know from psychology studies that no one will act on something they actually don’t believe.
For instance, if you ever wonder why a close friend or a coworker or somebody just won’t do what they’re supposed to do, even though you’ve had lots and lots of talks with them and you go, “Hey, you can do this, and you should do this. Here’s how,” and you do everything … Maybe this was a parenting situation.
This is in my world right now. I‘ve got three kids. I tell them, “You can do this. You’re not going to get hurt. It’s going to be okay. You can do this.” I lay out the case. It’s logical, it makes sense emotionally, all these things, and your kid just stays there, and they will not do it. They just are absolutely overcome with fear. Why? Because they have yet to believe
Yeah, You have to buy in on yourself.
Well, yeah. You just can’t act on something that you don’t believe. If you think you’re going to drown when you jump in the pool the first time, you’re not going to jump in the pool.
When you believe, “I’m not going to drown, and so now I’m going to jump in.”
Well, I think you’re right because those first steps towards your dream job, that can be really scary. I mean, by definition, you’re pushing out of your comfort zone, which feels uncomfortable. You, in the book, on Proximity Principle, you say that in order to really start living the life that we want, we have to ask ourselves two questions: who do I need to know and where do I need to be?
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I loved that you have made this so approachable, because something like we just said, stepping out, going for something new can be scary. But if we start with those two very simple questions, that’s very comforting to know I just need to answer these two questions.
That’s right. Well, think of the dream job, or pursuing the job that you really want, the career that you want as climbing Mount Everest. If all you do is stare at the top of the mountain, you’re going to be overwhelmed by the enormity of the mission, like, “That is so high. That is so scary. My goodness,” and it just locks you up, as opposed to if you’re going to climb Mount Everest, the first thing you need to do is go sit down and talk with somebody who’s climbed it before and go, “What kind of physical shape do I need to be in? What kind of mental shape do I need to be in? How long will I need to be train? How much is it going to cost?” all these types of just very practical questions, and then it’s not so scary.
Let’s just go back to those two questions. By asking who is it that I need to know and where I need to be, these two questions allow my brain to focus on the practical first steps. Even though it’s scary, it’s not as scary when we begin to get knowledge.
The fear of the unknown is what cripples us, not the fear of facing risks. The more we know as humans, Tanya, then we are willing to, “Okay, I’m going to take a chance there because I understand there’s a little bit of risk here, or maybe there’s a lot of risk here, but I’m going to mitigate for that, plan around it.” But when we don’t know anything at all, it terrifies us. It’s absolutely horrifying.
Who I need to know? Just pick an industry, whatever it is. Well, who do / need to know? Who do I need to know that can give me some information on what it takes to make it? When I get around those people, they’re going to tell me more things like what I need to learn, where I need to learn it. All of a sudden that right who is helping me identify the right where. Do you understand what I’m saying?
Then we get in when I get in the right places. I know that if I want to be in a certain field, I’m going to go to a lunch and learn or I’m going to get online in a webinar. There’s just so much information out there no matter what field you want to be in. I’m trying to help people understand that we didn’t have to move anywhere right now. We‘re talking about just basic information gathering.
When I get in the right place, lidentify, “Well, I need to be over here. / might need to volunteer over here,” and I’m going to do that. I’m going to go audit a class or I’m going to go volunteer. Now I’m in the right
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place, that’s the where, and then I’m going to meet some of the right people.
It just calms the brain because we go, “Oh, I can make a list of who need to know. I may not know a name, but I can say the type of person ! need to know.” As you know, that’s what we unpack in the book to get people started. In the places, “I need to be in this place right here, I’ve
got to get over here.” That might be an educational situation or maybe it’s a trade school. Maybe it is an opportunity to connect with people that are in the field that I want to be in. When we ask those questions and we actually write down the answers, our brain goes, “Oh, okay.”
The brain does the work for us. It helps that fear in the heart as the brain goes, “Oh, okay. Well, then who do I know that knows those people?” The brain just automatically begins to formulate next steps and plans. Those next steps and seeing a path are what fights the fear.
Right. Each step you could begin to see the path even further
That’s exactly right.
… and even further and even further.
I know for you, you’ve had some really amazing people enter your life, like Dave Ramsey. I know you’re a part of his team. He even wrote the foreword for the book. But we don’t all know somebody as big as Dave Ramsey, and we don’t have to
… to get the life we want. You didn’t start there.
I like what you talk about with the law of the zip code, that we can start where we are. Let’s talk about what is the law of the zip code.
Yeah. The law of zip code exists in the first place we unveil in the book, as you know, Tanya. In the first place we talk about, there’s five people that we take you by the hand and we walk you right up to them. Then we walk you right into the five places.
The first place is where you are. That is your current locale, your zip code. That’s where the law of the zip code came from as I was thinking through this content and writing the book. The law of the zip code says that everything I need to get started is already around me.
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I love that because that is so much more approachable, because we think we have to go somewhere big or wherever we are is not enough. But you’re saying that’s not true.
You don’t have to move somewhere to go somewhere.
Oh, I love that.
You don’t have to move somewhere to go somewhere. I had a guy call in on my radio show a couple of months ago. He was calling from Charlotte, North Carolina. He started off the call by saying, “Hey, Ken. / know what I want to do, but I just don’t know how to get there. To be honest with you, I don’t think I can get there. But I need your help.”
I said, “Well, what is it that you want to do?” He says, “Well, man, I love video production, I love everything about it, directing, producing. I’ve always wanted to be in the movie industry or television. I dabbled with it early on before I got married. But I live in Charlotte, North Carolina. I‘ve got kids, wife, a mortgage. Ken, at this stage in my life, I can’t move to New York or LA.”
I just responded with one question. I said, “How many production companies do you think are in Charlotte, North Carolina?” I just let him pause like that, and he started laughing. He knew what I was getting at. He said, “Well, probably a couple dozen.” | go, “Yeah, at least.”
I then went on to say, “Look, let’s just talk about the reality of thriving in the video production world in Charlotte, North Carolina. All those production companies are doing different types of things. But everywhere there’s a local TV commercial and you’re sitting down watching your favorite show. You’ve got your national ads and the local
ad comes on. That’s being produced locally.
When you see political commercials, your state politicians, statewide, even local, those are produced locally. When you think about all the businesses in Charlotte, North Carolina, we’re talking Fortune 100 companies in Charlotte, North Carolina, are paying most likely a local production company to do their web videos and so on and so forth.” / just cemented the idea, and he knew by that point I had him.
Yeah. You had him.
Yeah, I said, “Listen, you don’t have to move to New York and you don’t have to move to LA What you need to do is get in proximity to people that are in the video production business in Charlotte, North Carolina.” / specifically said, “You’ve got to start asking around. You know that world.” / said, “You’re having coffee with the guys that are working
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there. You’re taking them to lunch. Maybe you meet with the owner.” That would be the producer in the book The Proximity Principle.
“You’re saying, ‘Hey, listen. I’m not looking for a job. I’m not even asking you for a job. I’m just looking to make the move eventually. This is the industry I’m in. This is my background. I’ve got the chops. I‘ve got the passion to do it. I’m just trying to find the best way to start making this move. I just want to learn about moving over here. What are the places / need to be in that I’m not aware of? Where are these people hanging out? Who’s making things happen in video production in Charlotte?'” / got an email from the guy about six weeks later, and he got a job. That quick.
Oh, I love it.
He put himself in proximity and started making connection. This isn’t networking, this is connecting. This is one-to-one. I’m going to learn and I’m going to be humble. I’m going to take a notepad and a pencil. I’m going to ask a lot of questions and I’m going to get a master’s degree in who’s doing what in the field that I want to be in in my city. What are the ways to get in? How did the people that are in my zip code, how‘d they get where they are doing what I want to do? All of a sudden you would be surprised how, if you’re humble and you’re hungry with those type of people, they’re willing to open up a ton of the words for you.
That’s the example of the law of the zip code. You may eventually need to move to LA or New York, okay? Let me close the loop here. But you don’t have to move to start. I got started in national broadcasting even though it didn’t even smell or look or even it wasn’t even the same … It wasn’t even county, the same county of national stuff, but I was doing local radio, local TV, and that’s what I built on to be able to get to the point where I am now.
You might eventually have to move, but you don’t have to move, change zip codes to actually get started. I think that’s what I want people to understand, because those early days of starting, as you know, Tanya, you were just talking about it a moment, was huge to overcome the fear and doubt.
It’s so true. This is that idea of turning over rocks that you talk about, where it’s just turning over rocks, looking for opportunities of where you are now. Don’t worry about five years from now, if you’re going to have move. Let’s focus on where you are right now. I want to talk about this more in just a minute, but first let have a quick word from today‘s sponsor.
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As we just mentioned, this idea of turning over rocks and looking for opportunities where you are now, I love that you talk about that famous Jim Rohn theory that we’re the average of the five people we spend our most time around. For many of us, this is our peers. You say there are
two kinds of peers. We have environmental peers and intentional peers.
Again, this goes back to that idea of choice, of choosing how we’re spending our time. Can you talk about the difference there?
Yeah. When I call someone an environmental peer, they are in proximity to you and your peer because of the natural rhythm of your life. I see them at the golf club, / see them at the gym, or we’re in the same spin class or we take yoga together, our kids are in the same preschool, and I work in the same office as them. These are people that I’m around consistently because of my natural flow of life. That’s what I mean by an environmental peer.
The intentional peer is somebody that I know that I need to be very intentional about being around because they lift me, because they challenge me, because they cheer for me. Life is so much better when you have peers that are like-minded and like-valued. You just get each other and it’s a positive feeling. You feel the juice when you leave them. You tell your wife or your husband or your other close friends, “Well, when I’m around so and so, man, it’s just time flies and it’s just good. It’s just good for my soul.” We all know people like that.
More importantly, we know people that aren’t like that. I think that when you understand that if you’re spending time with people that aren’t lifting you, that aren’t challenging you, that aren’t cheering you on, they’re unintentionally, sometimes intentionally
. they’re dragging you down or holding you back. Dragging you down or holding you back. I believe that. I absolutely believe that. If you want to be living on purpose and doing work that you love, and it’s going to
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take excruciating discipline, every day I’m going to get up, that’s perseverance, I’m going to get after it and I’m going to be patient and wait because I know that it‘s worth it, then you’re going to have to have peers that are supporting those two disciplines every day. Perseverance and patience are hard enough as it is.
That’s so true.
You don’t want the person who goes, “Listen, what are you doing? That’s a complete of waste of time. I mean, come on. Come on, man, let’s just live for the weekend, man, Let’s party up, Let’s drink a little extra on Friday, Saturday night. Let’s go do all these things. Come on, man. It’s not worth it.” You’ve got those kinds of friends minimizing your mission, whether they do it intentionally or unintentionally, going to hold you back or drag you down,
Absolutely. Again, it comes down to that idea of how are you spending your time? How is your time being spent? Because you’re actively choosing that. I love what you touched on earlier when you talked about the fact that basically education doesn’t have to take place in a classroom. It can take place in a thousand different ways and a thousand different venues through different people.
I love that you talk about that there are three must-haves when we’re in a place that we really want to grow: a healthy challenge, a clear path forward, and an alignment of values. In fact, you say in the book that it’s hard to grow professionally when you’re personally conflicted. / 100% absolutely agree with that because I think that’s so true,
We need to be in a place that challenges us. We need to be in a place where we’re surrounding ourselves with people who push us to be our best. We have to have that alignment of who we really are. At the core of who we are, that needs to be a part of that.
That’s exactly right. Of course, half of what we do on our show is we help people understand who they really are and what they were created to do, In this particular book, The Proximity Principle, it’s geared towards the person who has a good idea what they want to do and we’re going to get you in that space and allow you to get the confirmation that you need.
But I’m glad you brought this up because the person who doesn’t know who they are is going to be constantly confused. They’ll have seasons of
great clarity and then they’ll have seasons of fogginess, because when life throws its curves at you and its ditches and its potholes and raspberries and all the things that…
Yeah, big potholes.
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... you get it and it’s going to happen. If you don’t know what path you’re supposed to be on, you have a real disorienting type life and, boy, that is just as bad as being miserable when you’re confused.
This idea of do you know who you are, and I’ll just give you a quick construct here, you’ve got to know what your core talents are. This is what you were created with. These are things you’ve always done well, subjects that come easy to you, tasks, functions that just come easy to you. Now this is talent.
Now we can take talent and we can hone talent into a skill. If you’re a naturally just pretty good communicator, you can become a great speaker or a great teacher or a great writer. There’s multiple ways to communicate with words. But you‘ve got that core talent that now can be honed into a sharp sword, a skill.
Then I’ll also say strengths. People call these soft skills in our world. I’m just not a fan of that phrase. I call it a strength. For instance, if you have the natural gift of empathy, that’s a gift, that’s a strength. You can talk to anybody and, inside of 90 seconds, you’re in their shoes. You just go, “I get how you’re feeling.” That is a great strength that can, again, be developed into a skill of counseling, for instance. You’ve got to look at what I do best. That’s talent and those are strengths.
Then you’ve got to look at passion. This is work that you love to do most. Talent is what I do best. Passion is what I love to do most. These
are the roles and functions, tasks that when you’re engaged in them, time seems to just slip away. You look back and you go, “Whoa! Where’d the time go? I thought I was doing this for 30 minutes and it’s been close to three hours.” We’ve all experienced that on some level.
It’s also the thing that you look forward to. There’s no drudgery when you think, “Oh, I’ve got to do this today.” You’ve got the juice. You’re fired up about it and it makes your heart come alive.
Then we could also look at not just the work itself that you love, but the results of the work. This is where the values proposition comes in. Does the results of the work matter greatly to me?
That’s a little construct that I teach on the show. Anyone can get clarity if they really wrestle through that and get feedback from honest truth tellers in their life, people that won’t hold back. When you have that clarity, Tanya, then you’re able to stay the course and you know, “Okay, this is the work / was created to do. This is where my purpose is. I can always redefine the mission, but the purpose itself stays very, very clear.”
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I like to use, in the book, the analogy of Mount Everest, the mountain climbing. Mount Everest is the vision, the dream, and the purpose, if you will. The mission, how we get up the mountain, that can change. But it’s always headed towards fulfilling who it is / was created to be. That gets people tremendous clarity, and then that clarity leads to confidence. Then the confidence eventually breeds courage to stay the course.
Yes. All of our paths might look different, even if we’re going to the same place. I think that’s something to really accept and acknowledge, that there‘s not always sign posts that tell us, “All right, you’ve got to do this. You‘ve got to do that.” It’s like what you talked about, you take the first step and then you can see a little further down the path. Then you can take the next step,
That’s where you start to build up that momentum, through having the confidence and having the clarity and really understanding what is your end destination. Where is it I really want to go in my life? Then pulling together the places and the people to help you get there, to be your support system.
Yeah, You’d be surprised how much momentum you’ll begin to experience when you turn this proximity principle into an actual habit. I’m absolutely wildly confident that if anybody uses this truth, that’s why we call it a principle, that if you use it daily and weekly and monthly and yearly, no matter where you are … Like this isn’t just for somebody who’s starting out or somebody who‘s switching. This is a success principle.
The reality is that when I am consistently looking for the right people, that means I’m learning and I’m aware that’s a great place for anybody who wants to be successful to be. Then I am actually putting myself around these people and in those places. That’s the action. I’m learning, I’m aware, and I’m moving. I’m acting consistently. You just won’t believe how opportunity will show up and knock on your front door when you least expect it.
Bang on it sometimes,
It’ll kick the door down. I’ve had times where opportunity busted in like a SWAT team, like, “Whoa! What’s going on?” That’s really true. Now that doesn’t happen on a daily basis, and I’m not going to prescribe that on a weekly basis remotely. But I’m going to tell you something. The big breakthroughs in life feel like that at times, like the SWAT team is coming at 3:00 in the morning.
Yes, I think that’s so true. I think it’s so true. I would venture to say here to my listeners that let’s say that you do feel like you’re on the right path, like, “Oh, I’m in the career I want,” I think everything that Ken talks
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about in this book really can push you to get to where you want to be in that career.
All of these things he’s talking about with the people you’re surrounding yourself with, the places you go, the way that you approach learning, the way that you move forward in confidence, that definitely 100% applies even if you’re thinking to yourself, “Well, I am happy with where I am.” How can you push yourself to be better? How do you push yourself to get to that life you really are striving for, that life you know that you’re meant to have?
That is what I really love about Ken’s book is that not only is it approachable, but it is achievable. I think that it’s a roadmap for how we can all get there. I am really excited for you all to get your hands on this book, It is coming out May 13th, I know that Ken is excited because the messages that he talks about in the book are so powerful. Thank you so much, Ken, for coming on the show today.
Tanya, I’m honored to hang with you. I appreciate you so very much.
Well, thank you. I loved my conversation with Ken, and I hope that you did, too. I hope that you found it really helpful, whether you’re thinking about changing careers or staying on the career path you’re on now, You can follow Ken on Twitter at @KenColeman, you can follow him on Instagram at @KenColemanShow, or online at KenColemanshow.com.
Now next week on the show, we are going to continue talking about bending time by talking about how to make the most out of boredom. /
think that will be a really fun episode, so I’m excited for you guys to tune in. All right, until next time. Have a beautiful and productive week.
Thanks for listening to Productivity Paradox. To get free access to Tanya’s
valuable checklist, Five Minutes to Peak Productivity, simply go to