The Big Idea
We’ve got to rewrite the rules
Questions I Answer
- What’s the difference between talent and gifts?
- How can I figure out my purpose?
- What can I do to invest in myself more?
- How do I take action on my dream or goal?
Actions to Take
- Which of the 5 Mountains (located in the Resources + Links section below) do you think you identify with most?
Key Topics in the Show
Marshawn’s 5 Success Mountains: Areas we choose to dedicate our lives to, and sometimes can lose ourselves to in the process.
The difference in gifts and talents, and how you can recognize yours to use it to your advantage.
Learning the importance of investing in you and your purpose, instead of always playing it safe.
How to be there and show up for yourself, not just others, so that you are a priority in your life
Resources and Links
- If you’re struggling with finding purpose and investing in yourself, I recommend learning more about Marshawn and reading her new book, Believe Bigger.
- If you haven’t already, listen to Part 1 of my interview with Marshawn!
Welcome to Productivity Paradox from inkWELL Press. A podcast focused on finding success and happiness through the power of productivity. Each season, Tanya focuses on specific strategies to help you discover your own priorities and purpose. Season five is all about investing in you. You can also join Tanya, for more interaction and support, in her free Facebook group at inkwellpress.com/group. And now here’s your host, Tanya Dalton.
Tanya Dalton: Hello, hello everyone. Welcome to Productivity Paradox. I’m your host, Tanya Dalton, owner of inkWELL Press, and this is episode
- Today’s episode is brought to you by the liveWELL Method
course. I’ll be sharing a little bit more about that later on in the
episode. But today we are going to be continuing my
conversation with Marshawn Evans Daniels. Last week we talked
all about the shift you might be feeling, the uncertainty that’s
going on in your life that leads you towards your purpose. And
today her book is launching, “Believe Bigger.” This is a fabulous
book that I really believe has the potential to change the way you look at your purpose. So let’s go ahead and jump back into that
conversation with Marshawn.
Marshawn, I am so happy to have you back again this week.
Marshawn Evans Daniels: Thank you. We had such a good conversation. I’m glad we didn’t have to let it end.
Tanya: I know. I know. Plus it’s just really nice to have you on the show because, for those of you who don’t realize, Marshawn and I are
friends in real life. I’m lucky enough to call Marshawn my friend.
And I’m just so ridiculously proud of you and this book. And I just see this as a book that’s going to change a lot of lives. So, I’m just really excited to have you on the show again, and I want to talk to you about as we move past the gap. Last week we talked about
some of the things we go through, the voices in our head, how we have our beliefs that are maybe, what did you say? You said they are true, they’re factual, but they’re not true, so …
Tanya: I’d like to talk a little bit this week about how we move past some of that. And you talked earlier about how success is addictive,
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and achievement was your drug. We all have these addictions
that we try to define ourselves by, and you call those the five
success mountains. Could you explain a little bit about these five success mountains?
Marshawn: Yes. The five success mountains are these areas that we choose to dedicate our life to. In the rules, in the first stage, we’re taught who we are supposed to be. In talent, this is who we decide to be. The first mountain is the motherhood mountain. This is something that we as women are physiologically built for. Some of us, really, that’s part of our vision. It’s part of what we want, and there’s
everything right with it. The thing is, again, what happens when
the kiddos leave? Who are you as a woman? And I just believe
there’s something between a woman and God that is just
uniquely for her, that has nothing to do with other people. The
marriage mountain … I should say, the motherhood mountain is
one where we attach our identity to children. If you don’t have
children and you have trouble conceiving, my husband and I have been on our own fertility journey, when that doesn’t happen that can also be, it’s already emotional.
Marshawn: But then if you feel like you’re not a woman because of that, you know, I’ve heard women talk about that, but again this is, it’s been interesting to be talking about, “Believe Bigger,” while also being stretched to believe bigger in my personal life again
Tanya: As someone who also struggled with fertility, I know exactly what you mean. It’s hard not to identify sometimes with that.
Marshawn: Oh, yeah. It’s just, you know, you think that … So many things that we’re never going through it and then we’re in the middle of it.
And you’re like, “Wow! I’m really not in control.” Anyway, this first mountain is this motherhood mountain. The second one of
marriage is the same thing where we’re taught about Prince
Charming. As little girls that’s what the rules teach us. That one
day someone’s going to come and sweep us off our feet. And
that’s what we’re supposed to aspire to and then when we have it and it doesn’t work out, or when we have it and we have a great
marriage sometimes we can lose ourselves in the identity of
being a wife. So, marriage is the next mountain.
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Number three is money. This one is defined by work, your career, building a legacy of some sort. And in this mountain we really
find our value and our worth in our work; perhaps the titles that
we earn, or the check that we make, and awards. And this one has always been my Achilles’s Heel because, again, I was able to
utilize the ability to be successful to get great attention. And, I
was like, “Wow! This is way better than what people doubting
you. It’s great when people believe in you and they’re excited for you.”
So, the money mountain and the success mountain, for me were very addictive. And I lost my identity in my titles, in my awards, in being successful, and starting up all these companies. It can be
very dangerous because there’s something more fulfilling than
something that is not going to last forever anyway.
And then, mountain number 4 is the mending mountain. This is tied to our inner Ms. Fixer. This is the part of us as women, as we try to be all things to all people. And we find validation in solving other problems. This is where our martyr syndrome comes from
and being stretched, trying to be self-sacrificing for the sake of
saving others. There’s an identity part that feels good about
helping people. There’s nothing wrong with that until we’re doing it for the purpose of validation. We can lose ourselves in being
“the fixer,” as well.
And then finally, mountain five is making a difference. It is amazing to be a giver. It is amazing to change other people’s
lives, but when giving becomes part of the way we form our
identity, or the act of serving becomes our identity then it’s really no different than greed. And this a hard one for people to wrap
their minds around. Because I do believe that giving is a part of
all of our lives. But the question is, “You are not your gift. You are not your activity. You’re not your success. You’re not your failures. You’re not your children. And you’re not your spouse.” And
realizing like, “Well, how am I really designed and made?” Is just
really life changing.
But these are the five mountains that we climb, that form our identity, and also when we’re going through a shift it’s breaking
- It doesn’t mean you’re letting it go. I’m not saying, “No longer be a mom. Just tell your kids they’re on their own
Tanya: Yeah, it doesn’t work that way.
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Marshawn: It’s a time for an expansion. And, I think there’s nothing more powerful to a child, to a daughter, to a son, to see her mother
living out her divine design. Understanding how brilliant and her
beauty. How does that change what a child believes about his or her self? What’s happening … Because a lot of women … I coach
women now. I run the largest coaching company for women of
faith in the country. And I’ve worked with a lot of women who
wrestle with this. A feeling like they’re abandoning their children. And they’ll use their children also as an excuse not to pursue their dream.
Now we have to be responsible. Absolutely. We’re the most innovative species. Women are in particular.
Marshawn: I am grateful that I have a mom who sacrificed a lot for me. But I am regretful that she didn’t get to do some of the things that she wanted to do. And, I try to live out her legacy. I dedicated the
book to my mom, my two grandmothers, and my great-aunt.
Who because of being Africa-American, I am first generation, a
representation of the possibilities that they did not have. They
just didn’t have them. My grandmothers cleaned houses for other people. And that’s the opportunities that were available in the
50’s, the 60’s, and even earlier than that the 30’s. I’ve got to
remember when they were born. My grandmothers didn’t get to
have education beyond elementary school, because they were
black and living in the South.
So, I’m first generation full possibility where there literally are no limits. They’re identity was largely capped, because they didn’t
have the opportunities. And all of us as women are living in the
most permissive time of our lives and the most permissive time in history. We can’t let the things that we’ve learned, or even the
things that we’ve seen define us. We’ve got to rewrite the rules
and show that a woman’s place is anywhere God sends her.
Tanya: Yes. I love that. Climbing mountains is a great thing to do. Right? It sounds like a good achievement. We just don’t want to get
stuck on top of that mountain. Yes
Marshawn: And that’s why split rock moments come, that’s why disruption comes, to break us up with who we’ve been, so we can expand
our understanding of how amazing we really are.
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Tanya: Yes. I love that. You talk about, with the gap and shifting from our comfort zones, that there’s this gap between our talents and our gifts. Can you touch on that? What’s the difference between
talents and gifts? And why did you place the gap between those two?
Marshawn: Your talents are what you’ve been trained to do. What you’ve studied. What you’ve learned. What you’ve become very good at. There’s a principle that I outline in “Believe Bigger” called the
potential pyramid. And there are these four levels of potential.
And there’s a lot of things that we’re great at, but some of it
we’re great at because we’ve trained for it. Doesn’t mean we were born to do it, but anything that we focus on we can improve. And if we continue to pour effort and time into it we can get even
I look at being a lawyer as being something that I was naturally inclined to do; or so I thought, because I had the gift of gab. I
used to get in trouble for speaking too much in elementary
school. Get my name on the board with a check and then another check and I knew by the time it was, somewhere depending on
the teacher, between check #2 and check #3 that I have to go to the principal’s office. That was a natural inclination. Everyone’s
like, “You would be a great lawyer, because you like to argue.” I’m like, “Yeah, I do.” And then I saw Claire Huxtable on The Cosby
Show and that’s where I decided I wanted to be a lawyer. Because of the image that I saw and because of feedback that I had. And I said, “Oh, maybe I can be that?” And that became a decision I
made at 13-years-old. That developed what I did for the next 10
years, going later to Georgetown Law School.
Now, my gifts were also hidden in there. I realized that speaking communication is a gift for me. And also, I looked back and I
could see I used to brand when I was in elementary school. I used to create flyers for teaching. When I’m in 6th grade, I’m teaching the 4th and 5th graders cheerleading and dance. And I would
create my own flyers. And my dad had a computer company, and I developed his logo for him. I was nine-years-old. This is in the
80’s. This is pre-internet
Tanya: Dot matrix printer
Marshawn: … exactly, this is the old days. Where there aren’t social media images. And nobody knew to tell a little girl that she had a natural
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knack for entrepreneurship, branding, and communication. Even
having lemonade stands. I grew up in Texas, and it was hot in the summer, and I set up my lemonade stand. I was smart enough to keep my overhead low by utilizing the pantry as my supply
Marshawn: But, I would go door-to-door. I had a natural gift for marketing. I had a natural gift for branding. I had a natural gift for
communication. Because we are taught retirement and not
leadership, no one knew how to develop that. And for me to steer towards going into business versus going into … I thought I was
going to be Attorney General of the United States. I was going
into service. The gift was always there. All of us have these clues. That’s one of the reasons why I wrote “Believe Bigger.” I want us to be able to take a look back over our lives and see where our
gifts tried to speak up. Our gifts are what we were built to do and they impact other people’s lives and improve the lives of others.
The way I think, in terms of being a strategist, I’ve learned that that is unique, in a unique way. And it helps unleash ideas and
dreams in other people so that they can get unstuck and out of
the gap. Now I understand that’s a gift. I couldn’t do that at a law firm. It was a talent. I could write really well. I could have climbed that corporate ladder, but I realized, I took an aptitude test that I
make all of my clients take in my coaching programs, my business coaching programs. I scored a 3 in this category that’s fact
finding, which is basically research. That explains why I hated my job. That I should’ve loved, because it paid well. Because I was
told, “Well, you can be a lawyer.” But that’s not really what it is to be a lawyer. It’s not Law & Order. It’s not like what you see on
Marshawn: It’s research and I’m not designed for that. So, I could do it, but I wasn’t built to do it. And so many of us are doing things that we decided to do. We’re operating in that talent zone versus our gift zone where it’s just natural and it’s easy. It’s easy with an artist or a singer, because we can see those gifts differently. But
understanding that gifts are about our personality, a message
that we have inside of us, and a way that we show up, our actual ©Productivity Paradox Page 6 of 14
personality and our essence. How are people transformed?
Simply by being in your presence.
Those are some of the clues that we start looking at when we look at our gifts, which are different than our talents.
Tanya: Absolutely. It’s those little things and our bread crumbs. The little things that are little flags that we don’t necessarily see, cause
we’re so busy living that we’re not paying attention to those
things. And we think, “That’s not the life that I’m meant for. Surely, that’s not me.” And somehow it is. It’s little way of showing itself to you. I think that’s so powerful.
Marshawn: Yes. One thing, Tanya, is that we’ve been taught also that getting to love what we do is a luxury as opposed to a necessity. When
what we love shows itself, we assume that we’re being frivolous
or selfish, or incredulous to even think about pursuing something that we love, we need to do what is needed. That’s one of the
reasons why we miss all of these purpose clues. People are
already complimenting you on what you do. You’re already doing certain things easily, but because we’ve been taught that it has to come from hard work and we have to earn it, we miss the easy.
And the easy is what takes us into
Tanya: I think too, we discount things that are easy for us, “Oh, well that’s no big deal. That’s easy to do.” And, I often have to remind
people just because something is easy for you, doesn’t mean it’s
easy for others. And there’s an opportunity there to share that
gift, because if something is easy for you, you should be pursuing that and looking into that. I think you are so right, when you say,
“We feel like work is supposed to be something that’s needed
and not fun.” I like that word frivolous you use there, because I
think that that’s very true.
I’d love to talk a little bit more about investment in yourself. So, first though, I’d like to take a quick break from our sponsor and
then we’ll come right back.
This episode is brought to you by inkWELL Press and the return of my online course The liveWELL Method. I launched this course for the first time last fall and the results from our students have
been amazing. Many of them have already made significant
changes in their lives to discover their unique priorities and
©Productivity Paradox Page 7 of 14
implement a personalized plan to achieve their dreams. And, I
want the same for you.
I think it’s so important to know and understand your own unique priorities and purpose. But let’s be honest, digging into
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So, Marshawn, you talk about investment being a catalyst to calling. You give this example in the book, “If you wanted to be a doctor you would invest in school.” But as you talked about
earlier, investment isn’t really about a degree. It can be investing
in a new interest, a gym membership, or a training class. Making
that investment, you say, is one of the best ways we give our self permission to do something new.
I want to ask you, how do we invest in ourselves to move from that comfort zone to living in our purpose?
Marshawn: Wow. I think the first thing is, you’ve got to get a bigger vision than what you’ve known. And give yourself permission to dream, give yourself permission to believe. It’s something that we’re
actually scared to do, because we don’t want to be disappointed. You know, the reason why we worry, the reason why we hesitate, the reason why we have so much self-doubt, and even anxiety is
because of some expectation, some desire that has been severely wounded in some way. We protect ourselves from entering into
this place of curiosity and possibility because at least if I play it
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safe I won’t get hopes down. And I won’t be let down. And I
won’t have my heart broken again. What I had to learn that
anything that I ever wanted in life, I had to commit to. And
whatever you commit to is what is going to continue. Whatever
you water is going to fuel. A
And there’s this passage in the Bible that I absolutely love that says, “Where your treasure is, your heart is also.” That’s really
your commitment. When I got a bigger vision of … I didn’t have a choice to get this bigger vision, because I had to figure out how
to pay my bills.
Marshawn: When I closed down my agency, I didn’t know how I was going to have income. Because I felt this leading in my spirit to take a
pause, to rest, to figure out again how I get here, to do some
spiritual development, and just everything kept pointing to stop
and pause. But the mortgage company did not care about that. I had this luxury vehicle. Now, a car note for a car that I can not
afford and I did not buy for myself.
Tanya: So, what you’re saying is sometimes purpose doesn’t knock it comes and barges down the door. Is that right?
Marshawn: Yes. Yes. It blows everything up. I had to figure out how I was going to survive. It wasn’t even thriving. This was literally, how do I survive? I started investing … Well, first thing I did was I got this vision of wanting to start. I was a speaker. I was a professional
speaker, had done very well a professional speaker for a long
time. But I knew when I was engaged that I wanted to, being a
bonus mom at the time taught me about wanting to create a life that had more predictable income, where I didn’t have to always be on a plane. I had already been thinking about that. And then I got this email from someone who was doing a video series. And now those are more popular online, but at the time I had never
seen anything like that.
I got this vision, “Well, I can teach sponsorships. I’ve gotten sponsorships. I can teach branding. That’s what I do. I can teach
getting on media.” I was doing television commentary for ESPN
and CNN and Fox Business channel, very regularly at the time. I
got this bigger vision and I did something and it actually worked. I held a seminar, but from there I realized, “Wow! This actually
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worked. What do I do next?” This is the most powerful question
we can ask and this is where our investment really comes in.
When you’re asking, “What do I do next?” The real question you should be asking is, “Who’s already done what I want to do
next?” And I started realizing there was this world of coaching
and that there were a few women who were operating at very
high levels. I invested in my first master mind program because I
wanted to invest in this vision. I was passionate about it. My heart was in it, but my heart’s not really in it until my money is in it.
That’s just the reality
Tanya: I think that’s just the reality.
Marshawn: … we value what we pay for.
Tanya: Yes. Absolutely. I wholeheartedly believe that.
Marshawn: We value that. I teach now that you can not get a return on an investment that you never make. And there’s so many dreams
that we’re not living. So many realities that we’re not
experiencing, because we haven’t invested in it. We’ve talked
about it. Perhaps we’ve prayed about it. We’ve wanted for it, but have we truly invested in it? I invested in going to Georgetown
Law School. And at the end of that investment, with the time and the commitment and showing up day-in-and-day-out, I left with a law degree and that led me into the world of law. Because that
was my decision and my investment. And what you’re not
investing in, is indicated by what you don’t have. What you’re not experiencing.
It’s a tough-love conversation that I’ve had to get very comfortable talking with women about money. Because when you have a dream to build or do something, you’re gonna need a well funded vision for that to happen. If we don’t invest in ourselves,
it’s really a sign of self-worth. Do I believe I’m worth it? This is
why we’ll invest in everything else our kids, our families, our
communities, other people’s dreams. And we’ll pull everything
out into other people. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but
we put ourselves last on the investment list. We have to prioritize our own personal development.
I also believe in investing in your dream, but also your health. I invested in counseling, because when that happened to me I was
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like, “I don’t know how I got here? But I know I have to be okay,
because my future matters. It matters to me, but I know that my
life matters.” So, I had to put, and it was very humbling, to sit on a couch sometimes two days a week, and that was the only that
got me out of bed dealing with deep depression. But I invested in my wellness. I invested in going to the gym. Now in this season of my life, I invest in good quality food. All of that is an investment.
It is a sign that we actually love and care about ourselves.
Tanya: So true. I love that you use the phrase, “Get a bigger vision.” As opposing to, “Wait for a bigger vision.” It’s about being proactive versus reactive. And I talk about proactive versus reactive a lot
when I’m doing my coaching, because I think that so many of us
think, “Well, it will find me at some point.” You’ve got to get out
there. You’ve got to do it. What you said there a few minutes ago, “You can not get a return on an investment you didn’t make.”
There’s so much truth to that. I think that’s wonderful.
Marshawn: Yeah. We’re waiting for … Just like we wait, this is the rules, this comes back to Stage 1 of the purpose map where we’re taught
and discover to wait. Wait on Prince Charming. Wait to be
selected. Wait to graduate. Wait until someone tells you you’ve
climbed the right, taken the right steps, climbed the right ladders to be able to be chosen or to do more just to get a little bit of an increase in something. We are taught to wait. And I love how
you’ve picked that up and even emphasize it. It sticks out to me
and a different way than probably even what I meant with like
getting the bigger vision. I do believe that purpose is pursued, it’s not passive.
It’s like, if we have children and you know, let’s say the school, isn’t providing them the services that they need. You could just sit around and wait and hope that somebody prioritizes the success, the destiny, the educational experience of your child. Or you
could go and show up, like my parents did, at that principal’s
office on a regular basis at our elementary school saying, “You
know what, our kids, they might be the first black kids in this
school, but you’re going to treat them fairly.” And they were there all the time. And what does that do for a child? Right? It builds
their esteem and their confidence. But what if we did that for
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Marshawn: What if we showed up for ourselves that way and said, “I’m going to pursue my dreams, and my purpose, and my desires, and my
health and my wellness, my well-being. I matter.” We don’t do
these things, Tanya, because we don’t feel that we really matter.
We don’t know how important we really are. But, I do believe that every woman is a life changer. And it extends outside of the four walls of our places of worship. It extends outside of the four-walls of our home. It goes out into the four corners of the world. And
we have to stop sitting down waiting for someone to pick us. We need to start picking ourselves. We need to start before we’re
ready. We need to get in the game, because they’re other women out there, they’re other people, they’re other opportunities and
you’re going to change more lives when you show up more
That’s what this is. We have to believe bigger, so we can live bolder. I’ve seen women who’ve come to my seminars who were
going to commit suicide. And I talk about one of these stories in
the book of a woman who was showing up the day of a Launch
Your Dreams tour. I used to feel guilty about being in business
and whether teaching branding of whether I was being brag-a
docious and seem like I’m not taught to be humble. Even just
being a Christian, being a believer, and then sometimes feeling
though as though being ambitious is frowned upon, that
marketing felt very awkward for me at a certain point. I was good at it, but I was conflicted.
This woman comes to this seminar, waits until the very end, and I don’t see her for six months later, she told me at the end, “Thank you, for changing my life.” I see her six months later at another
event. She introduces herself. I didn’t recognize her right away,
but then I remembered her waiting for all 200 people to leave the room. And she said, “What you don’t know is that that morning I was getting ready to take my life. I was sitting in the car. I had the note written on the passenger’s seat and I drove to a park where I was going to do it. And the park was closed. And I’ve lived here
my whole life. I’ve never seen the park doors closed. And as I’m
sitting in front of that gate, I look over to pick up my phone. I
open the app for my email and I get an email from you Marshawn that says ‘See you soon.'”
She got a marketing email.
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And she said, “I sat in that seminar and listened to you talk about destiny, purpose, voice and dreams. And I realized that what
happened to me, didn’t happen to me. It happened for me,
because it was something greater within me.” And she says,
“When I said it that night and I couldn’t find the words.”
And I remember she was just stunned. I remember just holding her at the end. I mean, it’s to business as
Marshawn: … usual, because we’re real women. And she said, “What I meant was. I said you changed my life, but it saved my life.” That’s what really teaches us, what’s taught me about business that whatever our business is, even if it’s not a formal company, whatever it is
that you are supposed to do is attached as a lifeline to somebody else’s life.
I can’t tell you how, but I can tell you that it is true. And that if you’re listening to me right now, it means that when you show up bigger you are going to have an impact that makes everything so much sweeter than what you can imagine. And what you’ve been through isn’t representative of what you’re going into. It’s actually been the preparation for your next season. But we have to show
- We have to believe bigger. We have to live bolder. Other
people’s lives actually, literally in my view, depend on it. That’s
why women are stepping into entrepreneurship, the whole boss
lady, the boss chick movement. It’s not just about us being
bosses, this is about women, because we have nurturers, this
about us creating healing and motivation. I think bringing, I’m a
Star Wars person, us bringing balance to the force. So, that’s
what we’re here for.
Tanya: I love it. Marshawn, you say your goal isn’t to change who someone is. Your goal is to help change what they do so they can finally be who they are. I absolutely love this. And, I believe you’re doing just that through this book. I can’t tell people enough how powerful “Believe Bigger” is. I really want to encourage all of my
listeners to take a look, see if it resonates with you. Pick it up, it’s got the power to change your life. Marshawn, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it.
Marshawn: Thank you. I appreciate you, all that you do. I look forward to us continuing to, not only just be friends, but I do believe in
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purposeful connections. I feel like we are going to do some
amazing things together. And I’m looking forward to it.
Tanya: Me too.
Didn’t I tell you Marshawn is amazing? She really is an incredible woman. Her book is now available if you go to
believebigger.com. You can find information on how you can
purchase your own copy. I really want to encourage you, if you
feel like you’re struggling with purpose to grab a copy of the
book, because what she talks about has the potential to change
In the mean time, could you do me a quick favor? If you are enjoying this show, if you like my episodes would you go to
iTunes and leave me a Five Star rating? Or even better, leave me a review. I love the comments that are left there.
You’re going to understand a little bit more about why I really appreciate those comments, if you listen to this week’s mini
episode of The Weekender, that’s launching on Friday.
Alright, next week we’re going to be continuing our season on Investing in You, by talking about being efficient versus effective. And making sure that we’re prioritizing the right things in our
lives. Alright, until next time, happy planning!
Thanks for listening to Productivity Paradox from inkWELL Press. To join Tanya’s free group, simply go to inkwellpress.com/group.